Hillarysworld

Sanders · Diamond

"While Sarah Palin Exploits Hillary Clinton Empowers" (Sarah Jones, PoliticusUSA.com, 5/10/10)

freespirit · Moderator

This article does an excellent job of showing how deeply committed to women's rights Hillary Clinton is. It's evident that her commitment is based on a broad understanding of the history of gender bias in this country and around the world, as well as on her ability to comprehend the big picture - the impact it has had on the lives of women. Hillary's passionate activism on behalf of women began many years ago. For many of us who already considered ourselves feminists, the blatant sexism and misogyny of which Hillary was a target in 2008 hit us like ton of bricks. For me, it was a wake-up call - a reminder that some people in this country, both men and women, still harbor a sick, disturbed resentment of powerful women. People who consider themselves to be enlightened, sophisticated, and compassionate members of the human family revealed in the sexist insults, misogynistic ridicule, and blatant fear and hatred they expressed toward Hillary and her supporters, that they oppose gender equality and detest powerful women, as well as women who recognize that they have little power, but are hell bent to get it.

I appreciate this authors comments on Hillary and completely agree.

I also think she makes some good points about Palin. However, I don't quite get the level of rancor expressed in the article toward her. Obviously, in terms of women's rights, these two women are on very different pages. Hillary is a warrior, never forgetting her goal to support women. I don't think Palin's goals, at this point, are to fight for women. Actually, I think she's still trying to determine what her goals and roles should be in the arena of politics.

In my opinion, she has some growing to do. Her knowledge and experience have not deepened yet to the point that she has developed a completely clear idea of the causes and issues she wants to fully, and with no reservations support. The statement about the "God-based nation" or whatever it was is an indication of the need for growth and maturity. The personality and charisma are certainly there - and for some people her winning way will be enough to garner their support. Others will find the combination of charisma and simple, powerful rhetoric about god, country, the Ten-commandments, etc. more than enough to motivate their loyalty.

Unfortunately life and certainly, governing, is much more complex than can be addressed in simple rhetoric. And a person who represents this country in the national arena must have more than charisma and firey rhetoric. I hope Palin matures (for want of a better word) to the point that she fully understands that the real needs and issues of women in this country - the needs of all people in this country and world-wide. Only then, IMO, will she be able to develop the passion Hillary possesses to work on behalf of women.

I personally, hope Sarah Palin does grow and develop into someone whose knowledge, understanding, clarity, and passion match her winning personality and charismatic style. I just don't think she's there yet.

Sanders · Diamond

Freespirit, I too hope that Palin develops into that, but my hope for that is fading away with every passing day, honestly, that she appears on FOX News and makes those faux pas.

I found that article in searching for views on the CBS 60 Minutes appearance. That's the first I saw that author. I almost put my post in the thread on 60 Minutes appearance but thought this deserved separate thread.

The author is making the contrast that Hillary stands up for women's rights at every turn; plays well diplomatically on the world stage, and has really not whined about media and has not shirked away from media despite being posed hard questions - and that last point is where the contrast becomes significant given the existing clip from Palin.

As to Palin's ability to rise to a larger profile position, I was very hopeful until recently. The more she digs herself in with extreme conservate groups and statements of the kind she made about American laws and religion (which is just an invitation for conflict within the US, IMHO), the less likeable she becomes. You just do not say something like that and get away with it with all Americans - in fact, that is the kind of thing that stays around for a long long time - it is definitely not inclusive and is not a unifying message. Politics is a game of additions - that means inclusion. Palin has a lot of growing to do and honestly I have not seeing that growth in the last year. Palin has disappointed me greatly especially because I campaigned hard for McCain-Palin ticket, convincing people that she is more inclusive.. and governs as a moderate, etc.. but her words and convictions conveyed repeatedly lately are showing that she is quite extreme to the right and not very diplomatic. However much you smile and wink, you cannot undo the message about abortion that she said on Chris Wallace show a few months ago - she is completely opposed to 'choice'. In terms of growth, we needed to see her face the tougher interviewers, but we are not seeing that at all. All her appearances are strictly controlled to only provide unidirectional messages - controlled script, and most all her media interviews are at FOX News. Not much growth there as people really wanted to see her face tougher interviewers and demonstrate that she is more current in knowledge and has the ability to carry a good dialog on current global events.

Hillary Clinton says she is for women's rights, means it and stands for it every single time she can, including on the global stage, and when posed with tough questions from the media. She never shirks away from tough opponent. She even went to the Pittsburg Gazette's office despite knowing that the owner and management opposed her and her husband during Pres.Bill Clinton's administration- and having gone in there and convinced them on policy discussions she came out from that meeting to next day have their endorsement. That is a winner. That is inclusion. When someone is courageous and makes the effort to pose you a challenge, you take them on with dignity and giving them dignity in return. That is good diplomacy and good politics. Hillary excels at it. That's what I read into that story.

-- Edited by Sanders on Tuesday 11th of May 2010 12:54:35 PM

jdona · Platinum

I think we are too defined by the definition of what feminism was in the 1970's. Many women are still feminists but they don't fit into the traditional mold. Palin is one of them. The goal has always been where I am concerned, that women should be free and equal to express their opinions even when contrary to my own, and respected for that difference. Some women choose to be stay at home moms and traditional wives, in the70's we used to pretty well crucify them and accused them of being Stepford wives or brainwashed. In the 80s we sort of grew into accepting that if that was their choice they had the right to make that choice. Palin may not be a feminist in the same way as Hillary, few are in my opinion, but I don't agree that she has set us back 100 years. I think she is broadening the definition and I applaud her for doing that.

-- Edited by jdona on Tuesday 11th of May 2010 02:59:09 PM

Sanders · Diamond

Jdona, I like broader definition of feminism to include stay at hme mom which I think Hillary has done very well, including farmers etc she refer to in the CBS 60 Minutes interview. It is not contrite; Hillary has fully embraced women of all walks of life and that is absolutely wonderful.

Yeh, Palin setting back by 100 years? I would not say that. But Palin obviously does not support women having control on their body - a VERY hard-earned right in this country - and it became obvious to me in the first part of this clip (that I referenced earlier) that she will likely work hard to reverse Roe v. Wade and that is extremely bothersome. We do not need more Stupaks from any side. And, she would obviously have us go back to the founding father days whatever that means to women and 'slaves' and people of non-Christian faith.

freespirit · Moderator

I made the stretch, and supported McCain-Palin, though it was a difficult choice. Palin's stated position at that time was that while her personal and religious views were pro-life, she did not believe that her personal beliefs were the issue. She indicated she felt the established law regarding abortion should stand. That was the only reason I could justify supporting her. While I believe there has to be a way for women to refrain from being used by the political parties threatening us with the abortion issue, at this point, we have to remain on guard against any candidate whose stated intent is to allow the federal government to make decisions about whether women will or will not give birth.

The Dems have thrown us the bone of choice - believing that would entitle them our votes, no matter what else they did, no matter how much gender-bias they supported, as they did in the 2008 primary. The Dems are not for gender equality, as we saw. The Republicans have never even supported the right to choose. At this point, neither party, as far as I can tell gives a damn about women.

I understand the religious belief system that influences a person's views regarding abortion. They need to use those beliefs to govern their own lives - and stay the hell out of the lives of others. If Sarah can't get on board with that, I'll never support her, no matter how much growing she does.

Building 4112 · Moderator

Hillary understands the whole world community, and she is about creating better lives for all of us.

If the young feminist of today have a different way of doing what Hillary is doing, then I say they are an inspiration. The way I see Palady is she doesn't really know how to do this, and even though I think she cares, she along with alot of women don't know how.

As I see it the problems for women are getting worst, and everybody should be held responsible, starting in the home, in the community, in the work world, and in the churches.
That is why she is asking us all to speak with one voice, for human progress.

I know, because in the past, in my own home, my daugther sees her future, and sees the issue of religion, and abortion, women in politics with a different lense, I must respect that, and at the same time, it gives her confidence to move forward as a woman, as a mother.
Meanwhile, when a child is missing in her community she is on the list to go looking for the child, and I've seen her heart broken, and her eyes swelled up, because the child was physically abused and murdered by her own parent, and that is what I want in my daughter, be active, help when you can, because that is your community and where her daughter is growing up. I know that I've been a part of teaching her how to make changes.

freespirit · Moderator

I agree Building - many are responsible. Some young women are fully aware of the challenge before them in gaining equality, and are trying to find a way to fulfill that role. Others, however, seem to be clueless. i guess the advertising industry and popular culture, as a whole, are in large part to blame for perpetuating the myth that women have to look like fashion models in order to get a man - which, they tell them, should be the ultimate goal.

Some of the adolescent and older teen girls with whom I work do not have a clue. Lacking a sense of self, they seek to get approval and attention, and will do whatever it takes to get that. Again, getting a guy is the only goal. Some appear to romanticize victim-hood - standing by their guy, allowing him to get away with emotional abuse, and sometimes physical abuse. This attitude is fostered by the music they listen to.

It's sad and disturbing.

Jen the Michigander · SuperModerator

I liked Palin when McCain first picked her to be his running mate. She was spunky and sassy and she was the only person in that whole campaign who actually cared about winning it. I didn't think she was ready to be President, but I figured she would do well as McCain's veep and learn from that experience, although at no time would I have ever voted for her against Hillary.

My opinion of Palin started to sour when she quit her job as Governor of Alaska; that just didn't sit well with me. Instead of actually doing something to help this country, she has become yet another talking head who goes around giving speeches. Her book didn't do much to impress me, either. As time goes by, she keeps moving farther and farther to the right, much like the Tea Party movement itself. I was able to feel OK about voting for McCain/Palin because McCain is a moderate, but the Sarah of 2010 seems to have more in common with Mike Huckabee than with John McCain.

Do I consider Sarah Palin a feminist? Yes and no. Anyone who runs for vice-president is a role model for women whether she considers herself a feminist or not, just as Obama is a role model for young black kids even though his own record on civil rights is as about as extensive as his record on everything else. My main problem with Palin on women's/feminist issues is that she doesn't seem to have much knowledge about them. The above article quotes her as saying:
I’m a feminist who believes in equal rights and I believe that women certainly today have every opportunity that a man has to succeed and to try to do it all anyway.
That sounds like something you'd hear from an optimistic white, middle-class, small town 18-year-old girl who is headin' off to college in the big city. Sarah should know better than that.

freespirit · Moderator

Jen the Michigander wrote:

I liked Palin when McCain first picked her to be his running mate. She was spunky and sassy and she was the only person in that whole campaign who actually cared about winning it. I didn't think she was ready to be President, but I figured she would do well as McCain's veep and learn from that experience, although at no time would I have ever voted for her against Hillary.

My opinion of Palin started to sour when she quit her job as Governor of Alaska; that just didn't sit well with me. Instead of actually doing something to help this country, she has become yet another talking head who goes around giving speeches. Her book didn't do much to impress me, either. As time goes by, she keeps moving farther and farther to the right, much like the Tea Party movement itself. I was able to feel OK about voting for McCain/Palin because McCain is a moderate, but the Sarah of 2010 seems to have more in common with Mike Huckabee than with John McCain.

Do I consider Sarah Palin a feminist? Yes and no. Anyone who runs for vice-president is a role model for women whether she considers herself a feminist or not, just as Obama is a role model for young black kids even though his own record on civil rights is as about as extensive as his record on everything else. My main problem with Palin on women's/feminist issues is that she doesn't seem to have much knowledge about them. The above article quotes her as saying:
I’m a feminist who believes in equal rights and I believe that women certainly today have every opportunity that a man has to succeed and to try to do it all anyway.
That sounds like something you'd hear from an optimistic white, middle-class, small town 18-year-old girl who is headin' off to college in the big city. Sarah should know better than that.

well said, and I totally agree.